A debate between old friends; Part one; the argument

Hey Joe,

Let me preface my argument by stating that I am by no means versed in religious theology, yet even if I were a paragraph or two would hardly be sufficient space to intelligently outline my religious beliefs. That being said after growing up Catholic, becoming an alter boy, going through communion, gaining acceptance into the church, and then subsequently renouncing Catholicism I have developed a myriad of reasons for denying the validity of Christianity. First, yet not foremost, the Christian God is a contradictory God. Second, while I appreciate many of the messages of the scriptures, and feel that they can outline a sustainable, healthy, and “good” way to live, they are stories that have been orally passed down long before the appearance of Jesus, so if Christianity was not the first religion to have very similar creation myths than why would it suddenly become the “Truth.” (I don’t believe in a “truth,” but a multitude.) I would also contend that this adaptation and evolution of other myths into Christianity is something that is still happening today, which further detracts from Christianity’s validity. Moreover, the religion is entirely fear based, which is also contradictory to the teachings of Jesus. The countless millions that have died in the name of Christianity is enough alone to make me turn a blind eye. It is a religion, like most of the others, which relies upon converting others beliefs. My Grandmother (the wise woman she was) always said “change a man against his will he is off the same opinion still.”

Yet the lack of evidence supporting the Bible is the most glaring reason I am not a Christian. I have read The Case for Christ. I have been to more than a few sermons (albeit at the urging of girlfriends), and while I at times find them inspiring the simple basis for the beliefs, the fear mongering, the contradictory actions of most Christians and the Church – let us not forget the Holy Wars, Catholic priests, guilt, shame, and genocide all in the name of the Lord – I simply cannot buy into Christianity or any religion for that matter because there is simply no evidence, and what little evidence is given is always shallow and dependent upon belief in a God or entity. Not even quantum physics can save religion for me – as much as it has tried.

A debate between old friends;Part two; the refutal

Part One: The Thesis;

The rejection of truth claims made by individuals and or groups is serious by no short order. What we do in rejecting truth claims; is to reject ones identity and their worldview. By doing so, many are left feeling less in regards of their self worth and their implicit meaning in this life. I have seen first hand venomous tongues lashed out of many representing; philosophies, worldviews, religious groups, all to basically to say; I am right and you are wrong. This is commonly the perception of Christianity, and unfortunately it is often warranted.

At the center of this is; the unrelenting idea that we cannot all be right. Even saying that; we cannot all be right, is a truth claim that subjected to its own idea; it is a redundant statement. A perception of this world reveals that there are truths that cannot be denied without consequence.

Many groups may make truth claims that are in an agreement with one another and all may be wrong on that one point. That is not the problem; the problem is when we make statements that are of a contradictory nature with one another.

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This is the case for many differing worldviews; we agree on some issues or doctrines, but we disagree on others.

Unfortunately, what we disagree on is what actually defines us as different. What I want to focus on is the implications of our disagreement in regards to truth. When we disagree, we all cannot be right, one may be right while the other is wrong, and both may be wrong. The world in which we live is maintained by rules; laws that are undeniable, we, therefore; live in a world on a razors edge. The implications of truth in reality define whether or not we exist in a world of laws. I argue that the implications of Christianity in regard to truth are exclusively right in what contradicts other worldviews, and is inclusively right with worldviews whom agree on various points. I do realize that is a bold statement but it is one that is made by all who deny any worldview on account of it disagreeing with their own. I would also like to consider the implications of a right worldview based on truth.

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Part two; An argument against the truth claims of Christianity.

I asked a friend from my adolescence that I presumed to not be a Christian, to write me in regards to why he is not a Christian. I thank Facebook networking site, which has allowed us to connect after a decade of not corresponding. It is interesting how we as individuals are both far removed (as far as I can tell) from what we remembered one another as. He wrote back to me in conversational form with a few points in question in regard to the validity of the Christian faith (attached at end of paper). I will like wise engage in a conversational format, to fit the tone of the friendly argument (I will site some sources for academic integrity). I do contest that if we are to be effective in overcoming these issues we should be able to interact with people without out-sourcing our brains. Michael Ransdem coined a term; conversational apologetics, I like that.

The issues brought up by Ned are not irrelevant, but challenges that Christianity needs to and should address. I will summarize as best I can in two issues that Ned has brought to light in regards to his rejection to the truth claims of Christianity: One; The rejection of the Christian Bible

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as truth, and secondly; the hypocrisy of those whom claim to be followers of Christ.

Ned is now a teacher in California; I am now a pastor in Montana. I would bet that neither one of us would have guessed that we would be where we are. We both come from the same geological region, I would also dare to say that socially he was from a middle-class background, and mine a lower middle-class. He was an alter boy in the Roman Catholic Church (my condolences) as a youth. He has therefore since renounced Christianity for multiple reasons.

My religious experience as a youth was not structured; it was more sporadic to say the least. My earliest memories were of a old backwoods preacher at a church in Hamersville, Ohio screaming, sweating, extremely upset about something, dropping the N** word occasionally, and just really scaring the hell out of me and everyone else in the church. My dad thought he was called to preach and did so occasionally at local churches. I thought it odd how he treated my mom and me, as everyone else thought he was the greatest thing since Billy Graham. After my mom left him, we didn’t have any consistency in regards to a commitment to a particular church.

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I basically grew up a hedonist (even though I didn’t know what I was generalized as at the time), just doing whatever felt good for the

moment. I did once have a youth pastor lead me through the sinner’s prayer and I was baptized thereafter. I really didn’t mean it; I was just manipulated to do it. The guy took interest in me afterwards and sort of tried to take me under his wing. Since I didn’t have a father figure in my life my mom was all for it. A few months later he was convicted for molesting little boys. I hated religion (and still do) from that moment on. Not only was I a hedonist, I was an atheist as well.

Obviously that has changed.

Ned brought up (not formally, but subjectively) two issues that the proponents of Christianity have struggled with. I have touched briefly during my introduction to one of the subjects at hand on the issue of; hypocrisy.

Exhibit A;

Hypocrisy has made its self at home among the church since its conception. I am disgusted by what I read in the news, disgracing acts done by so-called leaders of the church.

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The worst times in church history were during the times that the church had more power and sway in world politics. The countless that have been killed for “heresy”, the greed, lust for power, are things that many have chosen to give a blind eye to for the right price. From my own experience I have seen many calling others to repent of sins of the same sort that the one who was calling was committing or doing worse themselves. In the presence of many “Christians” I have felt uncomfortable, I remember when I was converted we took our children to church as a family and the looks our unruly children would receive would make an alligator cry. The list could go on and on in regards to the dreadful atrocities that have been committed in the name of Christ. I would also add honestly that the hypocrisy that I see in others, I continue to see manifest in my own life.

Exhibit B

Christian Scripture as truth has always come into question for its validity ever since it was taken from the Latin into German, and eventually translated to 3,168 languages (at least portions, the full canon of Scripture has only been translated into 457 different languages).

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I am not trying to play devils advocate, but to agree with the certain aspects of the argument that needs to be addressed. With that being said; I will struggle with this more than the former. The reason is that the biggest issue with Scripture is not Scripture, but with people. Scripture is often maligned and twisted to meet whatever agenda, or need that may arise. I will say that there is not any work of literature in history that has been taken out of context more than the Christian Bible. The failure of Scripture is in the one whom interprets it. As Ned contended; Christians have tried to adapt other myths to fit into Scripture to remain relevant to the culture, a recent example of this; the theory of macroevolution being used by God in creation, as accepted by the Roman Catholics, and some more liberal Protestants.

It is also reasonable to think God contradictory in regards to the relation of the Old and New Testament. It is not uncommon to see God portrayed in the Old Testament as tyrannical, racist, vengeful, as opposed to a God of love, peace, and mercy as portrayed in the New Testament. The canon of Scripture has been debated within the church for the past 2,000 years, and at the same time the church tries to teach absolute truth. So the new skepticism is really an ongoing skepticism.

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Part 3; The other side of the argument.

C.S. Lewis once wrote; that he became the most reluctant convert to Christianity. That was until I came along. My mom bought me a copy of Lewis’ autobiography; Surprised by Joy. She knew I was struggling, I married young, had a child young, and I didn’t like it. I was on a path to destroy three lives, the book sat on my shelf for a year. After contemplating suicide one night I thought about reading my Bible. I hated it and thru it across the room, I noticed the book that my mom had bought me just sitting there. I picked it up and noticed an inscription on the front cover; “I know you love to read, and this book is one I think you will enjoy. Love, mom.” I sat up that night and read that entire book.

I was an existentialist, really influenced by Nietzsche, even though I didn’t know whom he was. I defined myself, I was the means and the end, and anything that prevented me from obtaining happiness must be removed. I was my own deity. Sometime after that; God subjected me to His world, it was a Damascus road experience but without all the experience (I know, doesn’t make sense). I wasn’t seeking, God was. I didn’t want a God, it wasn’t anything in me, but it was something outside of me that made me a Christian. .8

Exhibit A;

Hypocrisy has been a word mostly used in conjunction with Christianity. I would not get much argument with that statement from many skeptics. Why? The reason is; that many that claim to be Christian do not practice what Christianity teaches.

Hypocrisy; if used right is a tool that is of much good use. If Christians are hypocrites it means two things; first it does not take away the truth of the teachings of Christ, because one is contradicting the truth by their actions, so we therefore affirm the sound teaching of Christianity, and secondly; if someone doesn’t look, smell, or act like a Christian, they probably aren’t a Christian. James wrote; But be doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the Word and not a doer, he is like a man that looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like.” - James 1:22-24.

In the U.S. Christianity has been socially accepted, and many people believe they are Christian by birthright. Statistically; roughly 83% of people in the U.S. when surveyed will say that they are Christian (ABC poll). 9.

Does that mean that those whom fall into that category define what a Christian is when they contradict the teachings of Christ? Do those who profess Christ as Lord define the truth when they don’t live it out? Are those whom commit atrocities in the name of Christ really Christian, if their actions are contrary to the Gospel? If they are not Christian than who is to blame? The individual is. This transcends all religious beliefs; we are responsible for our own actions. Christianity doesn’t commit acts of injustice, people do. Some may say that Christianity influenced them to do it. No it didn’t, not if their actions are contrary to what is commanded. All evil that is manifested comes from the desire of man to be existential. To carve out his existence by what ever means necessary. Enter the Caesars of Rome, the tyrannical leaders of Marxist Russia, Communist China, post Nietzsche Germany. All humanist philosophy, share one trait; they are commonly detrimental to human advancement, because in advancing a few many are destroyed. I do not need to go into detail. Of course many have done horrible things in the name of Christ, but that is not what Christ taught. Many have done horrible things denying an authoritative God.

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By doing these horrible things, denying God in the process; they are living out their worldview to the mark. Since 1973 there have been over 46 million legal abortions done in the U.S. alone. The sanctity of life has been degraded in this country not because of a Christian persuasion, but because of a secular hedonistic worldview that is practiced. Here are the stats¹ based on a 1.3 million murder year that is average:

Gestational Age	Percentage	Yearly Total
Less than 9 weeks	57.9%	752,700
9-10 weeks	20.3%	263,900
11-12 weeks	10.2%	132,600
13-15 weeks	6.2%	80,600
16-20 weeks	4.3%	55,900
21+ weeks	1.5%	19,500

That is the difference between Christianity and any other worldview.

To add in passing, there is not a perfect Christian, and their actions are not always in sync with what Christ taught. True Christians will admit to wrongdoing and repent of it (ask for forgiveness, and turn from the wrong action). The life of a Christian is like a seed germinating; we live in a decaying body being tended to life. A thought to consider; we talk about the consequences of worldview but never the benefit.

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^{1.prolife action .org}

Exhibit B; The validity of Christian Scripture.

Ned wrote; Yet the lack of evidence supporting the Bible is the most glaring reason I am not a Christian. I will take the liberty of saying that this statement includes other references that were made in light of denying the truth claim of scripture. First is the Christian God contradictory? How is He contradictory? Often we consider the Old and New Testament and think that God is speaking from both sides of His proverbial mouth. That is because we come to the Bible with a pretext, and typically take it out of context. Jesus spoke of hell and judgment more than anyone, God in the Old Testament showed mercy to gentiles, and many undeserving people throughout history.

Before the incarnation of Christ, God made a promise to Israel; that from that nation the whole world would be blessed. Through the line of Judah would come the Messiah, Israel was and will be the only theocracy in the history of the world. By whatever means necessary God protected His promise to the world. Understanding the anthropomorphic implications that we have attested to so far; men are evil and corrupt by nature, only the Bible of all literature attests that fact that has been proven over and over by our perception of mankind.

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“None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one. Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” –Romans 3:11-13.

We also must realize that the God of the Old Testament is the same as the New.

Oral tradition and example was the common practice in conveying information 6,000 years ago just as it is today. I drive on the right side of the road because I have been told to do it orally, and for 16 years I witnessed it being done (obviously this is contingent upon your location). It is written somewhere in a law book to drive on the right side, I already knew it to be so because it was orally passed down from my parents. The Bible commands parents to pass down His word, and if it is His word, and if He is God, through his chosen vessel of blessing (Israel) he has preserved it. Jesus came through the preserved line of Judah, he affirmed the Old Testament by his life fulfilling prophecy (over 300) and by quoting the Old Testament. Jesus affirmed the Old Testament books by quoting out

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of at least 27 of them. In the epistles the apostles quoted the Old Testament 209 times.

Since the 2^nd century Christians have had the best resources in regards to ancient manuscripts as opposed to any world religion. Could you name any ancient manuscript that has historical figures in it, and also claims to be directed by God? The characters that we find in the Bible are not fictional, but are attested to blemishes and all. Rahab a prostitute mentioned from the book of Joshua is a direct line to the genealogy of Christ. If this was all borrowed, some one would have cleaned that up a while ago. The Bible never focus on mythical characters, like many books of that era, but on regular guys like you and me. That was extremely uncommon for any books throughout ancient civilization. Hinduism and Buddhism rely on legends that need no grounding in history, many religions deny history, but Christianity embraces it. There are countless artifacts and extra biblical texts that affirm Biblical accounts.

Those whom followed Christ and had a direct link to him physically have acted out the truth claims to the extreme. All of the apostles but John were martyred for their devotion to Christ.

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Christianity didn’t grow from myths centuries after Christ’s ascension, but the next day.

Louis Markos wrote the following; “…the most common critique of the Bible is, simply, that it is full of contradictions. This critique, I have found, is usually made by people who cannot think of one offhand but who “know” the critique is true. As it turns out, when these contradictions are actually listed, they turn out to be few in number, and most can be resolved either by some help from history or archaeology or by a more careful reading of the text.”²

Like wise there may have been influences to Christianity throughout the years, but the core doctrines of the orthodox faith have remained the same. We should also consider the brightest minds in the world have beat against the Bible and have not yet been able to crack it. It remains the number one selling book in the world regardless. One last thought; the Bible was written over a course of two thousand years, 66 books, aprox.37 authors, no contradictions within the context in which it was written. Is there anything else in the known world even close? The Bible claims to be God’s revelation to humanity, and it demands to be our absolute truth.

^{2 Apologetics for the 21st Century} 14.

Conclusion;

There is much more that can be said about the topics that we have just barely touched on during this conversation. One thing that I have hoped to accomplish is that you would realize that Christianity is a tough nut to crack. I would also argue in closing that it is more consistent than any other worldview that man could embrace. Christianity is not a religion it is redemption from religion. Religion is man-centered, Christianity in its pure teachings are God centered. I do agree that self-serving individuals have corrupted it countless times, but it remains true regardless. Knowing Christ is knowing freedom, knowing freedom is knowing truth.

“If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” –Jesus (John 8:31-32)

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. –C.S. Lewis

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A review of Beisner and Meister's debate in regard to the origins of evil

Two different arguments to solve the same problem; how can Christians explain evil in the world if God is good. It would seem that Beisner comes from a classical reformed perspective, and Meister is coming from a classical Armenian view. Both of these views would claim to be biblical, and both of these views if stretched to the extreme can develop into heresy pretty quick. I am personally a Calvinist for the most part but I hold very loosely to that persuasion when necessary. When dealing with soteriology,ie.; the doctrine of salvation, the sovereignty of God is easily perceived. When we come to the problem of evil it becomes a bit harder to digest. I do agree with the free will argument in regards to the introduction of evil into the world. God created a moral world, and in order for it to be moral there must be a choice between to do what is pleasing to God and what is not. In the garden Adam did what was pleasing to God until he disobeyed Him and ate of the forbidden tree. That tree represented the moral dilemma, don't eat, or eat, you are commanded not to eat. Who planted the tree? God, even though God is good, He must know evil as well, or how could he say that He is good? Evil would be the opposite of God. By eating of the tree, that would be the opposite of the command of God, so therefore; it must be evil to eat of it. Up to that point all Adam knew was good, all he knew was God. When tempted by the Serpent, Eve was tempted with the ability to be like God, in other words to deny God and know something other than God. Something other than God is evil.

The million dollar question is this; did God know they would break His command? A resounding yes! We can glean this from Ephesians 1:3-14; If God predestines us for redemption in Christ before the foundation of the world, then He would know of man's rebellion before he created him. Man was free initially, but post fall man became enslaved by sin, unable to choose to not sin. Christ sets us free to have faith in Him, and establish a relationship with God in Christ's righteousness imputed to us. So I agree with Meister untill the fall, and I agree with Beisner for the most part.

Suffering

We all suffer. Some to a greater degree than others, that is obvious when we look at the world around us. The magnitude of suffering from the loss of a loved one (child, spouse, parent, close friend) or the torture of a child inflected by their parents which may lead to death or psychological baggage that will be carried throughout this life, that is always tragic. I will remember what Fyodor Dostoyevsky wrote in Brothers Karamzov; “This poor child of five was subjected to every possible torture by those cultivated parents. They beat her, thrashed her, kicked her for no reason till her body was one bruise. Then, they went to greater refinements of cruelty — shut her up all night in the cold and frost in a privy, and because she didn’t ask to be taken up at night (as though a child of five sleeping its angelic, sound sleep could be trained to wake and ask), they smeared her face and filled her mouth with excrement, and it was her mother, her mother did this. And that mother could sleep, hearing the poor child’s groans! Can you understand why a little creature, who can’t even understand what’s done to her, should beat her little aching heart with her tiny fist in the dark and the cold, and weep her meek unresentful tears to dear, kind God to protect her? Do you understand that, friend and brother, you pious and humble novice? Do you understand why this infamy must be and is permitted? Without it, I am told, man could not have existed on earth, for he could not have known good and evil. Why should he know that diabolical good and evil when it costs so much? Why, the whole world of knowledge is not worth that child’s prayer to dear, kind God’! ..."Imagine that you are creating a fabric of human destiny with the object of making men happy in the end, giving them peace and rest at last, but that it was essential and inevitable to torture to death only one tiny creature that baby beating its breast with its fist, for instance - and to found that edifice on its unavenged tears, would you consent to be the architect on those conditions [speaking about a precious little girl who is abused daily by her own mother]? Tell me, and tell the truth?

Last night in our small group Bible study we got on the discussion of; why does God allow bad things to happen to good people? This is no easy thing to answer ( especially with no warning or time to prepare, but this is the real world where we should be ready for questions as common as that), the people in the group all shared in the grief of loss and the doubt in God that sometimes results of suffering.

In responding to that we should always do so in a kind, gracious, and gentile manner. We know that questions such as that come from a dark place within the soul where pain, regrets, and hopelessness resound. Even at the death of Lazarus, Christ wept for the loss of life. This is no matter to take lightly or just from a theological, philosophical, or logical perspective. With the common catastrophes happening all over the world, many people are searching for answers. Jesus Christ the sovereign God of eternity cared for the suffering of the people and is always compassionate for those who are suffering.

Mary came to Jesus and said; “ Lord if you would have been here, my brother would not have died.” Isn’t that the same reaction that we all have in the midst of pain; if God would have just come through for us, we would not have suffered in this way. We all know the rest of the story, Jesus came to the tomb four days after he passed, and raised him up from the dead.

When Jesus saw the grief that they all shared and was moved to weep for them as well. This is a glimpse of the goodness of God and his love for all of creation. To know that God cares enough for us to be moved and share in our suffering is substantial in our relating to others in the midst of suffering. We should note that Jesus didn’t correct Mary in her drawing an assumption of Christ not caring enough to be there when Lazarus died. There is a time and place for that, but at the breaking point it is helpful to know the sufficiency of God in all those times, but it just doesn’t feel that way. Lazarus would die again, he would not live forever, but what we have seen was; a glimpse of the power of Christ to restore what was lost for all whom believe on Him.

From a theologically perspective as a Christian we know that this world was subjected to futility(Romans 8:20-22), from the invasion of sin into the world from the first man, fueled by all of the rest of humanity thereafter. The result of humanity’s fall into sin, is the reason for suffering. In other words all that is wrong in the world is a product of man’s own devices (some obviously contribute more than others). When I see a tragedy such as what has happened in Japan, or when I think of the death of my father at the age of 42, it is not only a reminder of the tragedy of the event, but an in your face reflection of the horror of the sin that I struggle with everyday. That leading to knowing that God is not abstract in all of this, but even though what I get is well deserved, what he received wasn’t. To have the full measure of God’s wrath dumped on Him for what others have done, was such a degree of horrifying execution that no mere person could ever bare. To understand that God cares, to know that he weeps with those who are suffering (even if they are wrong in their perception of Him), to know that he

bore the final weight of judgment that we deserve, this should not only help us through, but should completely change our lives. This is the hope that will carry us all though a life for those whom seek His face.

For the atheist there is no reason for suffering. It is the cruelty of chance, nature, and meaninglessness. The honest atheist will say that we cannot truly know what is good or what is wrong. It would be understood as relative to the individual, until there would be a conflict in each individuals perception of what would be good in their own eyes. We all live under an umbrella of knowing what is generally good and what is not. Where does that come from? How do we know? The atheist philosophically will tell you that we can’t know, but he will never live that way. For he cannot, he is in total contradiction between what is reality, and what is not. The Christian life is not in contradiction, but in the stark reality of knowing what is good, and what is evil universally. For to know God is to know what is good, without knowing what is good we should never know what is evil. Since we all know God, we know what is evil. Therefore God is good, and working all things out for those that love Him.... Romans 8:28